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Only in Seattle, can a bogus naturopath school flourish - More student loan porn

By willywonka following x   2019 Jul 16, 3:27am 477 views   24 comments   watch   nsfw   quote     share    


Elisha Bokman has been out of school for eight years. Still, her student loan balance is half a million dollars.

Today, for her doctorate degree in naturopathic medicine and master’s in acupuncture from Bastyr University, she owes $499,322.69.

She and her husband struggled to buy a house because of her debt. Eventually, the financial stress led them to a divorce. “He felt like he couldn’t live his life or do the things he wanted to do,” Bokman, 38, said. She wanted to open her own medical practice, but she said her student debt prevents her from getting a business loan.

“It really effects the remainder of your life,” Bokman said. “There’s no out.”

The average college graduate leaves school $30,000 in the red today, up from $10,000 in the 1990s. Yet much larger balances are becoming more common.

Around 178,000 graduate students owed more than $100,000 in the 2015-2016 academic year, up from 51,000 in 2003-2004, according to Mark Kantrowitz, the publisher of SavingForCollege.com. In the first quarter of 2019, over 6% of all student loan borrowers owed more than $100,000, up from 5.4% in 2017.

Recently, Democratic presidential candidates Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have proposed forgiving student debt. Warren’s plan would reduce people’s tabs by up to $50,000, whereas Sanders’ would erase it all.

Rebecca Grable loves her job as a pharmacy manager at Walgreens. But to study at the University of Oklahoma to become a doctor of pharmacy, she borrowed more than $310,000, and said the debt has limited her options. A few years ago, when she tried to buy a car, she said, more than 11 banks denied her a loan.

“I feel like I’m stuck under it,” Grable, 27, said.

Balancing other bills is a challenge. “I just never imagined being a professional who still lives paycheck to paycheck,” she said.

Bokman’s and Grable’s financial records were reviewed by CNBC.

orrowers with huge balances should make a budget to get their spending under control, Kantrowitz said: “It’s a good idea to assign each expense to a category like ‘need’ versus ‘want.’”

Then he suggests paying off your loans with the highest interest rates first, to save money in the long run.

“The name of the game is paying the least amount over time,” said Betsy Mayotte, the president of The Institute of Student Loan Advisors, a nonprofit that helps student loan borrowers with free advice and dispute resolution.

At studentloans.gov, she said, you can figure out the best repayment plan for you. For example, income-driven repayment plans cap your monthly bill at a portion of your earnings.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/12/she-owes-500000-in-student-loans-giant-balances-are-on-the-rise.html

1   6rdB   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 8:42am   ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

willywonka says
Rebecca Grable loves her job as a pharmacy manager at Walgreens. But to study at the University of Oklahoma to become a doctor of pharmacy, she borrowed more than $310,000, and said the debt has limited her options. A few years ago, when she tried to buy a car, she said, more than 11 banks denied her a loan.

Prevailing wage for retail pharmacy managers is upwards of 120-130K these days. OK is cheap to live in. Tuition in pharm school at U of Oklahoma is ca 25K/year, meaning her degree cost about 100 K (https://pharmacy.ouhsc.edu/programs/doctor-of-pharmacy/tuition).
1. She can cry a river...her salary is good enough to pay off her debt even if it is on order of 300K. Of course if xe wants newest model of iphone, and 600K Mcmansion, then it becomes problematic.
2. How can one rack up 300+ K in debt with 25K*4 yrs tuition?
2   willywonka   ignore (3)   2019 Jul 16, 8:53am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

$25k tuition + $50k other expenses= $75k/year. 4 years = $300k.

Not including summer work income.
3   Iranian_Oil_Burse   ignore (5)   2019 Jul 16, 9:00am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

willywonka says
“It really effects the remainder of your life,” Bokman said. “There’s no out.”


Huh? Move overseas and open you "acupuncture clinic" there: there are plenty of gullible people all over the world.
4   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Jul 16, 9:02am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Higher education is such a rip off. With the rise of online schools, the institutes of higher fraudulent charges are having a difficult time filling their enrollments. People who want to get their bachelors on the cheap can do that fairly easily now. And masters/doctorate programs online are expanding at record pace.

Soon, a masters should be about $12,000 start to finish, with a doctorate about double that. The market will push it there.
5   6rdB   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 9:08am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
With the rise of online schools

Those are much, much worse frauds than real schools. I would never ever hire anyone with a degree from online school.
6   6rdB   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 9:09am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

willywonka says
$25k tuition + $50k other expenses= $75k/year. 4 years = $300k.

Sounds fishy - a friend of mine went through state school for a BS, then pharm school, 4 yrs/20K per year, and she racked up only 120K in debt TOTAL.
7   NuttBoxer   ignore (2)   2019 Jul 16, 10:29am   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Bastyr University is a well respected Naturopath school. I've been to a naturopathic doctor who had a degree from them, and she was earning plenty. And in California I believe naturopaths are required to still do all the basic med school as well, so if anything she should have been further in debt.

The title is misleading, this is really about people who can't budget. And if you can't budget you definitely shouldn't go into debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
8   Ceffer   ignore (2)   2019 Jul 16, 10:31am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

She shoulda worked for Epstein when she had the chance.
9   RC2006   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 11:27am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

This story doesnt talk about her partying and using the money to pay for everything in her life during the time frame she was in school.
10   willywonka   ignore (3)   2019 Jul 16, 11:36am   ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Everyone knows women become naturopaths in order to bill insurance companies for tug jobs and slurpies.
11   RC2006   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 11:50am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

willywonka says
Everyone knows women become naturopaths in order to bill insurance companies for tug jobs and slurpies.


Maybe the name should be changed to natursemenpathy
12   zzyzzx   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 12:49pm   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

willywonka says
Not including summer work income.


Why would you assume that they actually worked in the summer?
13   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Jul 16, 12:50pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

d6rB says
Those are much, much worse frauds than real schools. I would never ever hire anyone with a degree from online school.


Maybe I’m not being clear. Online classes and degree programs are offered at many if not most accredited universities and colleges today. These do not require physical infrastructure to maintain, like classrooms And lecture halls to book. If your university does not offer online courses, it will likely fall behind as things progress.
Students these days aren’t as interested in having to physically go to class as they are in completing a course they can do from their iPhone.
14   6rdB   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 1:58pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
Maybe I’m not being clear. Online classes and degree programs are offered at many if not most accredited universities and colleges today. These do not require physical infrastructure to maintain, like classrooms And lecture halls to book. If your university does not offer online courses, it will likely fall behind as things progress.
Students these days aren’t as interested in having to physically go to class as they are in completing a course they can do from their iPhone.

True - but nearly all of my students tell that "online classes are a joke" even if they are administered at a real university.
No disagreement that school costs too much, probably twice it should really cost.
15   willywonka   ignore (3)   2019 Jul 16, 3:40pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

d6rB says
Sounds fishy - a friend of mine went through state school for a BS, then pharm school, 4 yrs/20K per year, and she racked up only 120K in debt TOTAL.
OK, let's do the budget.

Tuition: $25k/year
Books and supplies:$2k/year
Rent: $8k/year
Food: $4k/year
Transportation (bus): $0.6K/year

Total: Around $40k/year. Or $160k for four years. So even if she borrowed it all, she should only have graduated with around $160k in student loans for four years. And this doesn't take into account summer earnings.

The pharmacist borrowed a total of $310k. So her budget beyond student loans was $310k-$100k = $210k/4 years = $52.5k/year. But she could have lived on $20k/year if she lived inexpensively, but decided that she needed $32.5k extra, or $52.5k/year, to live a less than frugal life. Possibly car loan and insurance, nicer apartment, etc.

And she expects someone else to pay for this.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Oklahoma-City
16   RC2006   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 16, 4:04pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

^your missing the summer vacations in Europe and booze/club money.
17   ForcedTQ   ignore (0)   2019 Jul 16, 4:44pm   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

All these college graduate fucksticks need to go back to living like they were in college, not buying shit beyond necessities, and say buh-bye to buying a house until they have their finances in order. Just because they have a damn degree doesn't mean they didn't flunk personal finance. They did.

Pay the fucking loans off, don't shirk them on to the taxpayers. This is what happens when you live beyond your means and the bill comes due. You don't pass go, and you pay out all your money that you previously spent plus interest. Maybe in 5-8 years if she's downright intentional she can rejoin society and start purchasing things again.
18   tovarichpeter   ignore (2)   2019 Jul 16, 5:32pm   ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Half a million dollars to become a quack! Only in America.
19   rootvg   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 17, 7:39am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
d6rB says
Those are much, much worse frauds than real schools. I would never ever hire anyone with a degree from online school.


Maybe I’m not being clear. Online classes and degree programs are offered at many if not most accredited universities and colleges today. These do not require physical infrastructure to maintain, like classrooms And lecture halls to book. If your university does not offer online courses, it will likely fall behind as things progress.
Students these days aren’t as interested in having to physically go to class as they are in completing a course they can do from their iPhone.
When I saw Penn State offer courses online, that got my attention. It's legit.
20   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Jul 17, 7:44am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

There are good and bad online classes. It really depends on the instructor, and their commitment to involvement in the class. The worst ones set up a totally automated course and rarely respond to requests for feedback or help. The best ones are interactive journeys through the course material, with frequent instructor input, and have timed tests that require knowledge of the material to complete in time.
21   6rdB   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 17, 7:54am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

rootvg says
It's legit.

I'd agree about computer science and perhaps some math in theory, but not in practice. Chemistry, engineering, biology - absolutely not, even in theory. Online lab courses for chemists and engineers - wtf? I have seen those already. A chemical engineer or chemist who learned how to handle flammable and toxic substances online? Would you hire such guy who will proceed to set your business on fire after being hired? My students with extra lab experiences have 5+ offers at BS and MS levels - if their experience would be online, companies would not even look at them.

In classes I teach, kids who took intro courses online, even in legit schools, miserably fail at 80+%. Most of online classes have exams and/or tests on locked computers at home - friend can sit in next room and google answers or calculate answers. One student I taught told me that she could google answers for online classes 50% of times. There exist a whole universe of pay-for-my-online-class businesses, see for example https://paymetodoyourhomework.com/take-my-online-class/. Finally, online classes are SPECIFICALLY used to inflate grades and herd as many students into sections as possible (tenured faculty who can not be pressured to inflate grades teach such classes very rarely). Is this education?

A more philosophical question that needs to be answered is if all the classes students have to take at school are really necessary, or if they have their curricula padded by crap so that school can support a department of Wimmins studies and such.
22   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Jul 17, 8:19am   ↑ like (0)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

d6rB says
Is this education?


I think it can be, if the students don’t actively cheat. I completely agree with you about the labs and other practicals, can’t be done online. Nothing actually important or relevant to the job the student is training for actually should be done online. But so much of any degree program is composed of unnecessary courses that do nothing to prepare a student for their career. The students aren’t oblivious to this either. They know they just have to check the right boxes to be given a shot at the job or career they desire. Actual competence at specific tasks or projects isn’t actually taught very often.
It isn’t until they get to internships or other practical training experiences that the students finally get some relevant job training. Perhaps this needs to change. The university system has proven to be a very inefficient and substandard method to train workers. Most come out with degrees and no practical knowledge of how to do things that are valuable to employers.
This is less true with the hard sciences, but even there, not enough job training is done.
All it really accomplishes is a four to six year break from reality until they kids can get tossed into the job market with zero skills and a huge debt over their heads.
That seems like it benefits only the universities themselves.
23   6rdB   ignore (1)   2019 Jul 17, 9:03am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Quigley says
.But so much of any degree program is composed of unnecessary courses that do nothing to prepare a student for their career. The students aren’t oblivious to this either. They know they just have to check the right boxes to be given a shot at the job or career they desire. Actual competence at specific tasks or projects isn’t actually taught very often.

That is probably the key issue. + things that are extremely useful - such as ability to express oneself coherently in English - are often taught extremely poorly.
Another thing that is not usually taught is formal logic and critical thinking. These, while being very abstract and academic, are actually very useful in real life. Reasons are quite obvious - no Grievance Studies Department can survive a critical scrutiny.
24   Quigley   ignore (0)   2019 Jul 17, 9:38am   ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (0)   quote   flag        

Word. Totally agree.
My prediction for the future of higher education is that the free market will force changes to that calcified and inefficient system. Professors of grievance studies shouldn’t get too comfortable in their ivory towers. Even professors who teach worthy subjects should continue developing their skills and classes to be better and more competitive at producing educated students rather than entitled brats. The market will be the ultimate judge of their efforts.

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